IRC Chatlog 2011-08-15 15:00UTC


Velkommen, allesammen, til den planlagte spørgetime med Bdale Garbee og jeg. Vi er her for i en time at besvare spørgsmål og diskutere FreedomBox. Så indsend spørgsmål, og vi vil forsøge at give de bedste svar vi kan give.

naif: http://wiki.debian.org/FreedomBox

Jeg vil starte med et af mine egne spørgsmål til bdale: Hvordan går det med den første udgivelse?

Goldstein: Jeg har spurgt Ebens eksterne menneskelige hukommelseslager (også kendt som Ian Sullivan) og håber at have et svar til dig inden længe.

naif, og http://freedomboxfoundation.org/discuss/

vi er lige ved at lancere et "udvikleraftryk" for DreamPlug'et som er et relativt simpelt grundlæggende Debian-aftryk med essentielle kompileringsværktøjer .. Jeg havde håbet at have det ude denne morgen, men desværre gør dagjob og familie at jeg har haft begrænset med tid de seneste dage

subscribed!

Goldstein: @eben> Det er en klasse af »Comp Priv Const« ved Columbia om dødsstødet til det fjerde ændringsforslag (amendment). Lydoptagelse bør være tilgængelig på CPCs hjemmeside. Ian er med mig i øjeblikket, men vi kan finde ud af det for dig om lidt.

er den påkrævede u-boot-kode blevet sammenflettet opstrøm endnu?

det indledende udvikleraftryk kan installeres og anvendes med det fabrikstilbudte u-boot

bdale: vil dette aftryk kræve specifikt maskinel for at køre?

de to egenskaber vi "vil" have som ikke er i aftrykket, er evnen til at opstarte fra et eksternt filsystem, så du er nødt til at have en lille, fed partition for kernen .. og evnen til at afvikle et skript som læses fra filsystemet, så vi ikke behøver at hårdkode versionerede filnavne i flashen eller vedligeholde symlink på filsystemet, men ingen af dem er øjeblikkelige behov for udviklingsarbejde

gbastien: det aftryk som der spørges til er specifikt for Globalscale DreamPlug'et .. bemærk dog at *ethvert* Debian-system kan anvendes til udviklingsarbejde som ikke vedrørende ydelsen på en plug-computer eller arbejde på hardware-specifik aktiveringskode code

bdale: Du, Eben og jeg har talt om en første udgivelse af egenskaber. Nogen ideer til hvad dette kunne se ud, og hvordan vi kommer herfra og derover?

planen er at vi vil føje yderligere softwarepakker og konfiguration, få installationsaftrykkene til at spinne igen i takt med at vi føjer funktionalitet til

der er tre primære områder jeg mener vi skal fokusere indsatsen på snart

det første er at beslutte os for en tilgang for konfiguration af brugergrænseflade .. vi har mere eller mindre konsensus om at brugergrænsefladen bør være en web-grænseflade, og at vi ønsker at bruge så meget af den eksisterende mekanik til pakkekonfiguration fra Debian som vi kan i bunden

bdale: Web-grænseflade og XMPP-chat?

det andet er at udpinde forbindelserne mellem openpgp-nøgler og elementer for identitet og tillid for den software vi ønsker at benytte .. startende med monkeysphere og voksende ud derfra

Vil jeg være i stand til at køre software på en normak stationær/bærbar fra en USB-pen?

det tredje er at bygge en XMPP-kernestak .. som Knygar siger, det sandsynlige startsted er XMPP-chat, selv om vi med en base på plads, hurtigt kommer til at stå over for et ganske rigt sæt af forbindelsestjenester

jdeisenberg, med al software i FreedomBox pakket for Debian, så vil jeg antage at det er tilfældet

jdeisenberg: vores fokus indtil nu har været på at få sat en referenceimplementering sammen for ARM-baserede plug-servere, men at dreje det over på et x86-virtualiseringsaftryk eller et aftryk for en Debian Live cd/dvd/usb-pen som tilbyder et lignende pakkesæt, ville for nogle ikke være en vanskelig opgave at løse

Er der en liste (dvs. på en EtherPad eller Wiki) med ting som der er truffet beslutninger om?

arbejdet liw lagde i vmdebootstrap bør være let af indflette i vores frihedsbringende værktøjer, for eksempel, at udsende x86-virtualiseringsaftryk på samme tid som vi udsender dreamplug-stykker

silver_hook: der er et voksende sæt af sider i wikien, men jeg synes ikke der er noget så sprødt som en "liste med ting som der skal træffes beslutninger over" lige nu

bdale: Jeg tænkte mere i retning af agendaen for dagens møde.

* silver_hook er nu kendt som hook

vasile: så tilbage til dit oprindelige spørgsmål, jeg tror den første »udgivelse af egenskaber« vil være tilføjelsen af en XMPP-server og web-orienteret XMPP-chatklient

bdale: Glimrende. Og du hælder fortsæt mod ejabberd?

hook: oic, planen for dagens møde var en spørgerunde i "rådhus"-stil

* hook ændrer dit kaldenavn ...meget bedre nu :]

vasile: sandsynligvis .. jonas var i spidsen for dette ved Debconf, jeg ser ham dog ikke på kanalen denne morgen

bdale: OK, fangede den :)

* HerraBRE er nu kendt som BjarniRunar

I øjeblikket har jeg en Sheevaplug; vil softwaren virke på den? og, med hensyn til dreamplug'en, har folk som fremstiller den løst problemer med overophedning?

understøttes dreamplug-hardwaren fuldt ud af debian? jeg modtog min sidste weekend og en masse ting sker som udgangspunkt uden for pakkehåndteringssystemet (firmware, tilpasset kerne, etc.) --- Oversætters note: resten fortsætter på engelsk... Translator's note: rest continues in English for now. ----

vasile and I have talked about the idea that we should do this from time to time, just as another way to help folks know what we're thinking and working on, as sometimes chat like this is less stressful than trying to prepare "official announcements" and the like

jdeisenberg: I can report tha tthe overheating has been solved.

vasile: good to know; I am afraid to use my Sheevaplug because I don't want to burn my house down.

jdeisenberg: I also have a Sheevaplug .. our bits should work fine, modulo choice of an adequately sized root filesystem device

jdeisenberg: And the hardware is very much the same. Sullivan can speak to any minor differences, and he'll be in channel later. At any rate, I hope to test the image on a Sheeva at some point.

bdale: I for one like this initiative, direct chat is nice. I also enjoyed the recording of your DebConf talk :)

laziac: as I reported after our work at Debconf, we're now very close to having all the right stuff for the dreamplug upstreamed .. stock Debian doesn't quite cut it yet, you'll want a different kernel

jdeisenberg: I've had a sheeva running continuously for months. It throws heat but no flames yet!

@bdale regarding chat -- we are working in XCCC for a concurrent chat "FBX edition" with voting system, should be cool, we are planning to release it for a next this kind of chat.. personally, i don't like IRC, at all

BjarniRunar: thanks .. fwiw, I'll also be giving a FreedomBox talk at the Linux Foundation's LinuxCon event in Vancouver this Wed afternoon. I do not expect it to be recorded or streamed, however.

@bdale XMPP chat :)

Knygar: sounds interesting .. I'm more likely to be found on irc than anywhere else right now, but that may change over time

@bdale it would be at least fun, i promise

speaking of which, anyone here who has questions even when we're not holding a meeting like this should feel free to poke me about them here on this channel. I "lurk" here most of the time I'm at a keyboard, and I log the channel even when I'm not around.

@bdale for FNF i mean thefnf.org @all: are there any upcoming mega-infrastructure that would lead all the Freedom Networking projects? That may be compared with FSF, GNU etc.

?

bdale: Could you talk a little more about the config system? So far we have: A web layer on top, config scripts on the bottom (possibly dpkg pre/post scripts). What's in the middle? Where does the box store state? Is it in /etc as per usual or do you envision a separate db holding the user choices from the web layer?

the biggest differences between the Sheeva and Dream plugs from our perspective are that the Dream has an internal 2gb microsd (can be replaced with a screwdriver for access) that we can use for the root filesystem, and it has two gigE ports

my personal objective would be to keep the "database" layer as thin as possible

I'm also not really interested in a huge+heavy web app

Can/will email be done via XMPP?

to be brutally honest, this is an area I have not spent much time on yet

bdale: The challenge in my mind will be to prevent bad states.

Knygar: You're asking for a foundation to lead the FreedomBox Foundtion?

originally, I hoped we'd have a UI specialist on board who would help us define what the infrastructure requirements are

more recently, it just hasn't made it to the top of my list yet

bdale: Yes, we're still looking for that person.

@hook kind of

Knygar: Why?

(that's a serious question)

@hook it is more like coordinate

(hello all, sorry I'm late)

bdale: Have you asked the OpenUsability guys for help yet?

http://openusability.org/

i'v thought FNF is kind of

whoa... what about the FNF?

hook: No, I haven't. That's a good idea.

Thanks.

dogstar: to me, 'email' means smtp, et al .. however, vasile will attest that I've mentioned several times that to do something truly distributed and secure, we need to think more in terms of messaging other than smtp

Agreed.

what do you plan for a sync solution? From my point of view, dvcs-autosync (git) is the best for text files and webdav (or similar) for others (music, pictures...) [owncloud?]. I believe it is an important feature

yeah... xmpp can handle messaging

what about rsync?

vasile: Sure thing :)

bdale, API for the configuration would be good to have, so that the UI can be designed more freely

@hook @imw -- FNF to lead the industries coordination (freely, openly etc.) and software stacks.. ?

Francois_April: keep in mind that the reference box won't really have any storage space, so anything that implies the FBX is storing lots of data problably is an addon of some sort.

Francois_April: what do you mean by 'sync'?

reed: Agreed.

@hook yes, very serious, are we mature enough to make something globally and non-profit

bdale, something like "dropbox"

are you planning on collaborate with other free networks that are already working around the world?

BjarniRunar, I agree

@knygar FNF just wants to help people build their own infrastructure, and sees this as a vehicle

http://emoglen.law.columbia.edu/CPC appears to be fresh as of April 2006

Francois_April: There's ownCloud and SparkleShare.

Hi, new here. Do you think that freedombox can succeed without a physical device with it installed and with a big (so expensive) hard drive to stock personnal data ?

the network part is only one bit of the FreedomBox project... the idea is to collaborate with other projects that are already doing it, no need for FBX to replicate their work

reed: I think a good step would be to try and flesh out a list of configuration elements that we think we'll need for the first service or three, which will let us get an idea of just how much infrastructure/api we really need

fauno: Generally speaking, yes. Do you have a specific one in mind?

@imw good idea, since you list many projects and there would be more, progress, it is a nice variant i guess

there was some work done at Debconf on this, but I wasn't in the middle of it

Knygar: I still don't get why you're already having a foundation and would like another one....

Could you clarify that please?

hook, SparkleShare is in mono and not enough stable from my point of view

...then maybe I can get an idea.

hook, the FreedomBox Foundation already exists

guillemin: I'm afraid I don't quite understand your question. Could you rephrase or expand on it?

@hook FBX is working on FBX's but there are FreedomNodes etc.

reed: I know, that's what confuses me...

is Jonas here?

vasile: well, i belong to one in buenos aires. there's also a coordination group of latinamerican free networks...

why not just a decent rsync setup for syncing?

Francois_April: Good point. OwnCloud sounds promising though.

@hook all is very big and custom projects, even so they may use FBX as a base

fauno: If Debian can talk to it, then so can the FreedomBox.

fauno: redeslibres is great

>hook< knygar is probably talking about another foundation that he's working on or something, the freedom network foundation

fauno:plus funkfeuer and freifunk

@hook it is not an hierarchy question for me, it is coordination

Knygar: Oooooh, so a wider foundation then the Freedombox Foundation. OK, I get it now.

@hook FBX doesn't have enough people and probably won't have as far as the goal is FBX's for example

@hook @knygar yeah, FNF fills that role a bit, but the FNF is basically just me an Charles Wyble, for the moment

hook, yes. However, owncloud could not handle automatic syncs and offline usage. dvcs-autosync could but a nice GUI is missing

Knygar: my take on this is that coordination is best handled by talking about protocols and software .. coordination above that level is great talk over beer, but doesn't get any work done

imw: I saw that Wyble was going to release freedomnode a few days ago; has that happened?

@imw who cares :) the basic need is for coordination and since you could help in it and actually - helping, that is what i mean

bdale, you mentioned buddycloud on your report from DebConf: what's the status of their development? did anybody contact them?

jdeisenberg: not that I'm aware of

Francois_April: If that's so, you could file a wish "bug" to the ownCloud. That's the best idea I have right now (that has a GUI)

reed: I haven't (yet)

@jdeisenberg nah. he's hard at work though.

hook, OK. i'll do

my impression is that jonas was sitting with some of them at CCC last week, though

bdale, My mom only uses email. Has email been ruled out as an FBX app?

"OwnCloud sounds promising though" +1

vasile: sorry, I wanted to ask if you think freedombox can provide an alternative to cloud apps without requiring a big hard driver to record heavy personal data (photos, videos) and without being distributed in dedicated devices.

reed: I talked with the buddycloud folks at CCC

bdale: yes, BTW, there are possibly popular BrowserID that relies on mailing

imw: right .. anything interesting to report?

fiftyfour: email could be integrated through forward, to make the transition to a new messaging protocol such as xmpp

Has anyone signed up already to provide pre-installed FBX's=

?

(FBX = FreedomBox, right?)

bdale: it would be very nice if email would be a basic service of FBX's

Knygar, that should be easy to do. Do you volunteer to do that?

bdale: yeah, he's got everything that's in his 'data ownership stack' deployed on a redhat machine

@imw brave idea

imw, vasile: there are this regional conferences down here, there's so much interest that three were organized in less than a year... maybe you're interested on participating in the next one?

@hook yes

guillemin: Obviously we need storage for heavy files. That's going to be either local or somewhere "in the cloud". Maybe that's a friend's box or maybe that's a third praty hosted solution protected with encryption.

hook , Yes FBX = Freedombox

badle: that's as far as I know, but I talked to him briefly yesterday, and he said that he'd made progress before we cut out

fauno, where is 'down here'?

Knygar: you address ppl like so on irc

@imw that is for XMPP

fauno: Ping me after this chat and we can talk about it. I have limited travel, but I'm always willing to see if I can make it work.

reed: south americe

imw, what is forward?

imw: any interesting news from the buddycloud folks?

Goldstein: that is why i don't like it:))

vasile: ok, the date is yet to be confirmed :)

As for distributed encrypted storage (e.g. for backups) this is something the ownCloud guys are trying to implement.

reed: south america*

fiftyfour: meant to say forwarding, for which there are various methods

fauno: Fair enough. You can email me when you have specifics.

vasile: What is the state of funding for the foundation?

fauno: I plan to be in Brazil for the LF Linuxcon event later this year, it would be interesting if some other meeting(s) might line up on the schedule around then

@hook and Tahoe and Camlistore and etc. in various degree

imw: also interested in knowing status of buddycloud

* hook is not affiliated with ownCloud, he just follows a bit of stuff and many topics here were relevant to those solutions

Ugh

ok, /ignore time

bdale: that's good, we have even more limited traveling, but there's a group forming in brazil

Knygar: Right, but without a webGUI and direct desktop access AFAIK.

vasile: thanks for clarification.

Goldstein: i'm sorry, strong habit, i didn't want to ignore your opinion

When do you think you will need non-developpers but quite experienced users? Specific tasks in mind?

fauno: bdale: vasile: so folks at CCC asked me to come down to Brasil to talk about the FNF as well, not sure the timing, might be the same event

dogstar: That's a good question. We have our original kickstarter funding, and about five thousand in paypal donations since then. Of that, we have about 60K left, after fees, dream plugs, paying stefano, some printing costs (stickers, flyers, etc.). We are talking to some potential donors and making foundatio nappeals.

guillemin: My pleasure.

imw, will FBX forward the email for me or is it some other service

@hook yes, but they evolve , maybe WebDAV

imw: I'm failing to decode "FNF" .. help me out, please?

:hook at least

bdale: Free Network Foundation, I think.

fiftyfour: your fbx could fetch your messages from your old mailserver

bdale: Free Network Foundation, sorry bout that

can we all talk about identity management, or did I miss that part?

:vasile are there another platforms, besides Changemakers?

Having migrators on the FBX IMHO should be a must.

:vasile planned

fiftyfour: configuring an smtp+imap email service could be done in lots of ways, none of which directly align with or promote many of the desired attributes of a freedombox. so, exactly what additional value we can or should add to the email experience of a given user is a topic where I think some research and discussion would be good

knygar: the colon goes at the end, silly

:hook +1

Knygar: I'm currently finishing up an nl.net proposal.

:hook for migrators

If we really want people to easily switch, they need to have a simple "Migrate from FaceBook" button.

bdale: totally agree re:mail

and s/FaceBook/any_cloud_service

Knygar, do you know other foundations or groups that may be able to sponsor FBX development? send us a list

hook: That's an excellent suggestion. We'd need to have the identity management layer done first, but it's a great idea.

:bdale +1 for research

hook: https://github.com/LockerProject/Locker could be useful for that

...which would pull all their data, (optionally) delete it there *and* inform their contacts that the person migrated to his own free solution and how they can a) contact him/her now; and b) how they can free themselves as well.

Goldstein: I'm told that audio of the speech you seek exists but is in a queue to be processed and won't be ready any time soon.

:bdale i have even proposed Mozilla to make a secure hosting or kind.. for a next betafarm of community .. that is a very important task, i think

hook: sounds like a hackfest idea

laziac: I was just thinking about suggesting that as one of the tools ;)

it's also interesting to note that while I, and Eben, and many of our parent's generation live and die by email, it seems to be a much lower priority communications mechanism for most people these days .. [shrug]

bdale: so many years and not a one serious floss web-mail package, am i wrong?

hook: nice idea

bdale: I think it's still high priority in the workplace, even for people who don't use it much personally.

bdale, agreed, email can be bad

One thing that the FBX could do for e-mail would be to opportunistically encrypt/decrypt mail when GPG keys are available for the recipient. This would be in line with the project's goals.

Does FBX already have a groupware solution?

BjarniRunar: gnu anubis can do that iirc

That'd be a must for NGOs, civil groups etc.

vasile, only because of legacy ... but this is off topic :)

:bdale as i say - BrowserID is likely to make it important

bjarnirunar: keys should be present by default on the box, imho

Maybe Kolab + Roundcube ( we're working on making that a reality)

hook: what do you mean by groupware?

:bdale also - registrations with necessary mail would be here for years, i'm afraid

hook, great job! not sure it fits the FBX needs, but good nonetheless

BjarniRunar: it depends on what problem you're trying to solve .. smtp daemons can choose to opportunistically encrypt content in flight, but if the point of encryption is personal privacy, that's much better handled in the email client

we need to talk about naming, as well

imw: E-mail. Calendar, ToDos, Notes server (via IMAP in Kolab's case), etc. that can be shared between users, made public, you can delegate tasks etc.

hook: maybe

did folks get the e-mail i sent this morning?

Beyond the tech, how will FBX really get the scale it needs for security and the mesh level networking?

bdale: of course, but most of the things the FBX is supposed to help with would actually be better done in the client :)

imw: yes

hook: that seems outside of the initial spec, to me, but would be good later

I think we should focus on core functionality, for now

imw: yes .. I'm not ignoring you. as I mentioned earlier, working out how we get from openpgp keys to useful identity and trust elements for configuring and using apps is a high priority for me

imw, reed: It depends on what FBX is there for. If it's to empower groups like NGOs and civil initiatives as well, then it's a must.

bdale: cool. sorry I missed the beginning of the chat.

There is already some work done on desktop to import data from clouds (facebook for example). Some desktops (gnome for example) or mobile phones already provide a way to get contacts, chat etc. from cloud. May be the user should not ask freedombox to import facebook data. Rather the user connect his device to freedombox and freedombox gather information from configured online services.

joncamfield: Scaling mesh is hard. Interlinking them is hard too. My hope is that the dedicated mesh projects keep making progress. Right now, though, there are meshes running at the level of 5000 nodes, which is pretty good.

bdale: there seems to be a critical interplay between naming and identity management

* hook should be working on that blasted BSD question :\

hook, afaik FBX is more of a personal device, at least in its current incarnation

a good shared calendar service is highly desired, but it seems far enough from ready that I'm thinking of writing it up as a challenge in my blog

imw: interplay, yes

vasile: the key is not to scale, but to federate

Is anyone else besides me and Jonas coming to Brussels for this? http://epfsug.eu/content/epfsug-invites-freedombox

imw: and between social networking

vasile: 2.4 for the home, 5ghz for the neighborhood, 3650mhz for the region could work

imw: Yes, I include federation in the term scale, perhaps inappropriately. That's what I mean by interlinking them.

bdale: I'm pretty happy with how Kolab works (at least from the end-user perspective).

vasile: gotcha. well, it's especially hard when everything at the top of the stack is still centralized, and the mesh is being used to hop to a gateway

imw: what is the worst frequency for human beings, environment - among these?

bdale: But that might be a bit bloated if you only need it for the calendar

vasile: but as soon as you introduce decentralized services, it takes a load off, because local traffic stays local

knygar: it's really only bad for you if you hold it 2mm from your brain

imw: or from other parts..

knygar: delivered energy is an inverse square to distance,

I've been looking at radicale .. going from that to a useful fbx service isn't trivial, though, I think

imw: Yes, eliminating some of the roundtrip would reduce the hops. I wonder how big the gain would be.

bdale: whats radicale?

vasile: a topic for research, certainly

imw: http://radicale.org/

a simple calendar server using caldav

i love this!

imw: Certainly.

bdale: thanks

the idea of individuals having calendars and deciding what portion of them to be able to share is a good basis

vasile: Radicale seems cute'n'nifty :]

Everybody: this chat has been scrolling fast. If you tried to say something and it was missed, please try again.

We are at the close of our scheduled hour, so get those questions in. Bdale and I will be lurking, but I like the intensity of having people focused on things all at once.

Is there a (preferably distributed) search engine planned as well?

Is anyone else besides me and Jonas coming to Brussels for this? http://epfsug.eu/content/epfsug-invites-freedombox

vasile: I think the chokepoint project might have some info on how much traffic is actually local traffic, but if not we need to get it

e.g. Seeks seems promising and YaCy is also an option.

hook: in all our meetings, we've never seriously considered including search. In fact, we've explicitly excluded it a few time, at least when sketching assumptions.

vasile: why is that?

hook: depends on what you want to search .. I don't have any thoughts about "google on fbx", or anything like that .. but at the other end of the continuum xapian and things that use it like notmuch rock my world

Is email excluded?

Seniorexpat: I'm not, can't speak for others

I'm not saying it can't happen, just that in the constellation of possibilities, I wouldn't consider it the bright star by which we steer this ship.

seniorexpat: i'd love to, but I can't

vasile, bdale: That's too bad, but I can see why.

hook, look at the archives of the list, the problems IIRC are storage needs and processing power

So when (or how) can we start actually playing with the FBX software stack to see what is or should be in it?

hook: I'll fight to have search included, I think it's important

hook: the idea that we may want some search-like location finding mechanism seems reasonable, but I currently think that's more in line with application-level functionality, like some of what the buddycloud folks and other groups like that are working on than a totally generic "searc"

hook: Search is expensive.

gbastien: we've got to build it before we can play with it

imw: If you build it and it can fit, there's always a chance.

bdale: vasile: do y'all have dreamplug lying around?

*dreamplugs

imw: We have dreamplugs, yes. And more on order.

imw: Hehe, I'd love one too ;)

gbastien: the best starting point today is to grab some hardware that can run Debian, and start playing with the daemons mentioned in http://wiki.debian.org/FreedomBox/LeavingTheCloud and/or here

vasile: is there any chance that I (or others) could come play with them, or that you could distributed them?

bdale, is Email excluded?

hook, http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/freedombox-discuss/2010-October/000191.html and around that

vasile: also, does the foundation have an office where I can come bug you/ give you a high five?

reed: Thanks :)

*distribute

Search is not just expensive, it is a problem which is not trivially distributable. You can have distributed search, but the quality will be abysmal compared with what the Googles can do. It is a theoretically hard problem which benefits dramatically from centralization.

imw: I, Eben, Ian Sullivan and Clint Adams all work our of SFLC's office in New York City.

I would ask, would there be GNU/Hurd variation as well, but I already know the answer ;)

bdale: Thanks, I've been following the project for a while now but can't see how I can fit in, as a software developer

fiftyfour: I'm not sure what 'excluded' means, exactly .. I do not personally have any plans to work on an smtp+imap config for our reference implementation, but if you or someone else have a solid proposal, I'm happy to hear it

imw: You're welcome any time you're in town.

vasile: cool. =)

...I'd still love to see it one day. I think Hurd's might be more suited for such stuff.

I work from a home office in the woods in Colorado .. easiest to find me at a conference sometime, I suspect

As for getting a dream plug, I imagine we'll be selling some. And if you're doing serious work on the hardware, we can work something out too.

bjarnirunar: true. we've got to get work.

hook: if/when Debian actually releases a hurd variant .. ;-)

bdale: When I imagine somebody showing up at your place unannounced, I picture them riding an ATV and wearing snow shoes.

bdale: swell

bdale: AFAIK it will in the next release. But the bigger problem is that Hurd is not yet ported to ARM :P

imw: Well, when I say 'hard problem', I mean that it may be impossible in practical terms to get anywhere close to what one would consider acceptable quality. It's not just about elbow grease. :-)

i think more than anything this project needs focus. we need a list of critical features and we need to be able to tell people with other ideas to come back when those critical features are done. it would also make it easier to know the best way to contribute, since for me it's been very unclear how i can help. thoughts?

Does the FreedomBox Community have recommended software alternatives to Twitter and Facebook?

bjarnirunar: I know. It was a bit tounge-in-cheek. we need uncrackable encryption, too.

when it was new, I thought the Hurd was pretty cool .. I have to admit that I haven't been able to stir up much excitement in myself about whether it makes it into Debian Wheezy or not...

laziac: I agree. We're inching our way toward that.

Goldstein, statusNet is a good start

imw: ok :) Uncrackable encryption is easy though, just throw away the keys. ;)

bjarnirunar: =)

laziac: I'm happy to see other people (you?) add things to the wiki pages, including lists of unanswered questions that need attention

I'd probably recommend giving GnuSocial a look

gnu social is based on statusnet, no?

bing: yes

have people considered the overlap between fbx and the torouter project

Dunno

imw: Yes

I was talking to ioerror, and he seems to basically consider them the same deal

look at statusnet 1.0, very different from previous versions

imw: Jacob Applebaum is on the TAC, he's one of the drivers of the torouter project IIRC.

right, that's sort of my concern

right now, we're all volunteers, and so as is always true in this context, we work on the things that interest us the most and where we see how to make some forward progress .. more help, whether on the technical bits, or how to find some large donors so that we can hire people to work on the bits that aren't very fun, would be great!

(Jacob == ioerror, for those who don't know)

And StatusNet is a FB replacement, yes?

do people see the box including tor by default?

I think it should do encryption by default, but not anonymization

Goldstein, nothing can replace facebook, with its 700Million users... statustnet has some of its features though

or both?

imw: For a certain set of problems, routing around censorship or filters becomes the same problem as anonymization.

and possible include the facilities for anonymization, if a user wants to start an anonymous session, but that should be very clearly defined

imw: I see this box as capable of anonymity, but not necessarily running all your traffic through tor by default.

vasile: cool. exactly.

excuse me - tor problems.. are there a logs of this chat>?

reed: Well I disagree, but I think that does answer my immediate question :D

haha

imw: But by the time we get where we are going, who knows what the state of Tor will be?

vasile: true. things have been improving rapidly.

yep.

Knygar, we'll publish the logs later today

reed: thank you

I think it highly likely that an fbx reference implementation will include tor packages. it's not yet entirely clear to me how much of the functionality is turned on by default, etc

this all leads back to persistent names

right

bdale: and voting

I don't think we should expect folks to maintain a dns record

voting for tor or not, i mean..)

the interplay between naming, identity, authentication and social is at the heart of the backend, if you ask me

imw: oh, maybe ExpertBox's?

imw: Yes, that's the FreedomStack

imw: +1

.onions are perfect for an easy to use name that cannot be censored easily, has no overhead for the user, etc

imw: agreed

ioerror: but you've got to be running tor

yep

as a *client*

ioerror: User unfriendliness of md5sumnames is overhead :)

imw: mdns can do name resolution without a dns server, but it seems the performance is awful on medium sized networks :s

tor as a node would be reasonable

I believe that we marked the hour allocated to the meeting, some of us may need to go to work :)

in that case

dkg's talk from Debconf has good material on this topic area for those who haven't listened to it yet

ioerror: sure, but you've still got to be running it

BjarniRunar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zooko's_triangle

OK, friends, that was our hour. Bdale, any final thoughts?

ioerror: I know :)

Some of this is very reminiscent of Freenet's distributed architecture, has any of that code or thoughtwork been incorporated?

ioerror: that means that for anyone to access a service hosted on a fbx, they would have to run tor or navigate to a tor-to-web site that was set up, no?

imw: and how does any other solution solve this problkem?

imw: no

ioerror: I'm suggesting that it's not a solved problem

BTW, all the talks of DebConf that are somewhat related to FreedomBox are linked from http://www.freedomboxfoundation.org/news/FreedomBox_at_DebConf2011/index.en.html

(sorry, was also in multiple overlapping twisty meetings, all different)

imw: i do not think anyone has proposed a protocol for interacting with names

imw: i am suggesting that the naming system is however complete with .onions

great to see the interest/enthusiasm here .. I sincerely home that some of it translates into contributions to the wiki content, and/or more specific proposals of software and configuration that we should consider for fbx .. as much as I love "just talking about things", we need to focus as much energy as we can on protocols and bits to make real progress

s/home/hope

Is there a place to share links about design (relevant Art), discuss purpose etc ?

bdale: vasile: final question - when there would be Working Groups and how they would be..

My final thought: THANKS to everybody for participating. We'll do it again soon. I am, once again, impressed by this community's expertise and dedication to freedom.